Batch Sparging vs Fly Sparging

[keat]

Hey Craig, where did you get the pump and how much did you pay for it?

[Hunty]

What you dont want to be doing is (what i used to do) which is to keep moving a full kettle into an ice bath and back out for a fresh batch of ice. busts your back !

heheh, I am still doing that, but as its only a few lifts I dont mind doing it, try to use the legs which gives the quadriceps a good workout (and try to avoid the lower back !!!)

In fact when I count, I have to lift the boiler a total of 4 times (once ex burner to ice bath, in and out for second change and then out to ledge for drain to boiler) and the fermenter once, 5 lifts per brew. The advantage of this process is that the fermenter lid stays on after the boil is complete right through to the end of the cooling phase, I don't need to mess around with copper tubes, pumps and hoses and what's best I dont have to store the damn thing anywhere LOL. But I do realise that one day I will not have the privilege of being able to do this lifting, and will have to go for a more elaborate setup. But thats when I graduate to a high(er) volume beer sculpture. Dream is the Beerbelly, but thats a separate topic .

How are you now doing your cooling then Craig ? Thanks, Hunty

[craigev]

Keat - got the pump from northern brewer or morebeer, cant remember which

Hunty - using an immersion cooler from raymond. works a treat. but i still life the lid every 5 mins to give a good stir, it really really cools faster if you stir it often. thats why i reckon the best of the best is surely a whirlpool chiller, but im not buying another cooler ! and i dont fancy worrying about the bugs growing in it. but im sure this has been covered in other threads.

[Hunty]

Keat - got the pump from northern brewer or morebeer, cant remember which

Hunty - using an immersion cooler from raymond. works a treat. but i still life the lid every 5 mins to give a good stir, it really really cools faster if you stir it often. thats why i reckon the best of the best is surely a whirlpool chiller, but im not buying another cooler ! and i dont fancy worrying about the bugs growing in it. but im sure this has been covered in other threads.

Tks Craig. Do you lift the boiler from the flamethrower before you cool ? I find that the burner itself holds a huge amount of heat and must reduce the heatload quite a bit if removed... though again it defeats the purpose of avoiding heavy lifts...

[spud]

Whirlpool chiller, Aqua-Pump, heat exchanger is the way I'm heading.
-Tap water through a copper exchanger in ice bath to wort chiller out to drain.
-Boiler to Plate Heat Exchanger via pump then back to whirlpool.
-Ice water from ice bath pumped by small aqua-pump to Plate Exchanger and return.

Reported that similar rig drops from boil to less than 60 deg C in minutes not minutes X 10 average, so figure with tweeking should be able to get to lager pitching + 5-10 deg in maybe 20 min. Goal is 10-15 min.

Plan to stop the heavy lifting totally with the "More Beer" Pump. ( did try local agent but he was Bl**** useless)

Do some lifting at present but not the Boiler up and down like U Hunty, that sucks brother.
U will blow your phu phu valve one day..
Heaviest I lift is the HLT from flame thrower to top of washing machine (nothing else high enough) for sparge.
Oh forgot I do 1 boiler lift, more of a shuffle,, Have to swing/lift boiler from where the run off gets loaded to where flame thrower sits, maybe 2ft sideways and up the hight of the thrower base.
cheers spud

[keat]

I only do 1 lift now, after chilling - I lift the boil kettle up to kitchen counter for racking into fermenter. I suppose I can eliminate that with a pump...but man, it costs quite a bit. But I guess it's cheaper than hiring a chiropractor to fix your back.

[craigev]

Hunty, i never thought about the heat sink of the burner itself. i think your right, it does retain a lot of heat.

No, i dont lift it of the burner. guess i could, but like has been said, then your lifting. i dont want to lift it off at the height it is at, the base of the kettle would be slightly above belly height and so i would need to stand on a stool to lift easily.

Spud- when you have got your wort down to lager temps after 20 mins you say. do you also then need to wait 20 more mins for the crap to settle to the bottom of the kettle before opening the spiggot and draining into a fermenter ? if so then its total 40 mins time before drain. I can get to lager temp in about an hour including the time taken to settle the crap since i can leave my chiller in the kettle to cool a bit further whilst the crap drops. Maybe the wirlpooling causes the crap to settle whilst wirpooling so no need to wait longer ?

[craigev]

So, to report back on my efficiency now iv actually bother to calc it..

executive summary is it averages about 74% using my (none sparge) technique. My last 3 batches were 77%, 75% and 69%. now, iv been messing around with my grain mil gap so this prob explains the differences. and the best (77% was with a gap of 0.045 inch. although i got an easier drain in terms of draff with 0.040. the 69 was attained with 0.035inches.

So make of it what you like. Im going to stick with 0.045 which just happens to be the factory default !

Either way, i reckon 74% aint a bad efficiency and i dont spend time sparging. so there !

BTW - i previously messed up my efficiency calculation. iv only done the calc once and assumed i had to measure the gravity and volume of wort in my fermenter versus same volume and the ideal laboratory exctract of 1.036 points per pound per gallon. Iv now realised i screwed up and its actually your PREBOIL volume and gravity you should be comparing. The big diff i got was due to the fact that i end up with about 4L of crud at the bottom of my kettle which i pour down the drain - the guides i have read suggest that 2L is the normal wastage. 2L of extra wastage per 20L s a whopping 10% of loss ! i dont care, but thats actually the reason i get lesser efficiency than most folks (rather than my sparging tehcinique)

Again, im happy to know that i can save an hour or so of time, and still get a rather reasonable efficiency of 70+ percent !

[spud]

For give me guys.
Silly questions here from a silly fart.
Everyone has the calc for efficency, I guess after taking everything in its place the end result is to get the most out of the ingredients with min of fuss and time,, so whats the quickest method for efficency calc?

After the back to back brewing yesterday, the lifting, the time spent fly sparging I'm convinced that if U are all getting around 70+ efficency then I'm the idiot for "fly Sparging are I.
Yea Hunty U maybe right

Recipes I used were Jamils and I hit his numbers pretty much maybe more, but havent done the calc. for effiencey as yet. Now my problem is, he says his average efficency is in the mid to high 60%.. How can that be, with all his experience and equipment available to him he is achieving such low %'s. But he does Fly Sparge.

Interesting Craig U didnt get better effiecency when the grain was crushed more. Experts like to explain that one for me... I did reset my Mill to .040" and the crush was smooth , every grain was cracked which I think at .045" there would have to be some sliding thru with a squeeze only. But once again Craig U had a different result...

[Hunty]

G'day Resident Spudulator.

See you have had one of those bursts of enthusiasm, no doubt driven by a strong thirst and empty kegs

Efficiency is an easy thing to calculate, and you really only need to know a few numbers to calculate it.

1) The weight of grains you are using and their extractable sugar content.
2) The volume of pre-boil wort you collect
3) the SG of that wort.

Could I suggest when you get your PC together you use the trusty ol' recipator at this site:

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator

It has a "find efficiency tab". Basically you plug in what it asks and its done for you.

As for Jamil's 60% odd, I cannot comment other than I agree with you on the "very low" side.

Again I go back to the scale thing. Fly sparging is the only way to do it if you are making large batches. But if they are small, ie 23 litres odd, then there are alot of merits to the batch sparge process which allow you to agitate (stir up) the grain bed to yank out those sugars. In my process which is a 2 stage sparge, i'm at 84%. Alemaster Keat who uses a very similar process and equipment is also in the 80's. This is not to say batch sparging is better than fly, its just my calculations with my process and equipment.


When you get your PC up and running, I'd be interested to see your number please resident spudulator.

Hunty

[craigev]

Spud, your backbreaking work is saving a couple of hundred grams of grain. good for the environment if you ask me.

BTW - i heard on a podcast recently that efficiency downgrading is now flavour of the months for yankee homebrewers. Apparently they are all now saying that too much efficiency implies your draining more bad stuff into the kettle - cant remember what exactly , tannins i guess.

How much crud do you guys leave behind in your brew kettles ? - ie wort crud that you dont move to the fermenter. Mine, as i said before is about 4L. Should I be using a filter in my kettle spigot or a sieve on top of the fermenter to filter out the hop and break crud and save another couple of litres ?

[Hunty]

Craig makes a valid point.

In fact its not about maximising efficiency, its about knowing what your efficiency actually is so you know how much grain to use for each batch, and therefore to get your OG calculations right.

btw I leave behind a little more than 2 litres....and 23 litres usually gets into my fermenter.


Hunty

[keat]

Alemaster Keat who uses a very similar process and equipment is also in the 80's.

I should probably quantify that statement - there are a few variables that affects efficiency that is beyond our control - the grains in your recipe and the SG of the wort. I have noticed differences in efficiency in different base malts. My system is very tuned to a certain base malt, and when I switched to another type, I notice a drop in efficiency, even below 80%. It is also a known fact that as your SG increases, your efficiency will drop. e.g. when you brew an IPA or Doppelbock, you will get a lower efficiency than from a pale ale.

[keat]

BTW - i heard on a podcast recently that efficiency downgrading is now flavour of the months for yankee homebrewers. Apparently they are all now saying that too much efficiency implies your draining more bad stuff into the kettle - cant remember what exactly , tannins i guess.

I heard it in the brewing network podcast, from Jamil or some celebrity brewer - oversparging will drain tannins and other compunds - silicate or something, that will cause off-flavors. I think it's silly to downgrade your efficiency, think of all that wastage. If you can't detect any off-flavors, you are fine. I think it happens only to those who are obsessed with efficiency and want to squeeze out every last drop.