Kilkenny Recipe

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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby southernoise » 16 Nov 2008, 12:27

hardcore! :D
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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby keat » 16 Nov 2008, 13:03

Hey p & p welcome to the forum

puakz and phu wrote:Hello!

wow the forum's alive!!! :D

I wish i could show you smore pictures we took during the process but this is roughly how it goes...

MASH TUN/LAUTER
was a $60 colemans cooler, about 40-50L size i think. there was an existing outlet at the bottom but we borrowed a hand drill and drilled it out to attach a spigot we got from hardware stores ard eunos. waterproofed using hi temp black acetate silicon. the spigot outside fit the food grade pipe same in size as tt which comes with the siphon, on the inside to the lauter manifold. on the inside we got slotted pvc piping, home-cut and sanded smooth and this alone took one full day. (yes pvc might leach but well we dont have too much $$). the piping we got and the joints didnt allow for a proper 3 row-manifold (but then hydrologically speaking according to the entire chapter on building a good tun by john palmer we needed one, so we improvised and the entire manifold looks like this:
promise more pics up when i can cos now the equipments all soaking for tomorrow's brew- cherry ale!

Did you add the cherry to the mash? I would suggest freezing the cherries, then add into the fermentor after fermentation is almost complete. The freezing helps to burst the fruit tissue cells, and you get more juice coming out. Cut the cherries in half and add the seeds (or stones) if you want a nutty almondly flavor.

Think that the efficiency shd be quite alright because after the lautering the grainbed was really flat smooth... we took about 3l to clear the runnings (the first recipe had wheat in it). As usual the cooler box doubled up as the mash box so we did 40-60-70 deg C rests to 74 deg mashout using promash to tell us how much water to add. Tedious step and i think we might wanna build a proper inner sprinkling system soon.

you're fly sparging? batch sparging will save you the trouble of building the sprinkling system :D


BOILER
was a $50, 35-40L capacity stainless steel hulk we got from kampong glam, together with a 3-ring gas burner, burner stand, heat shield etc. the boil was very vigorous and it took all the hop bags to shreds; next time we're using the spice wire mesh balls to hold the hops so it wont make a great mess...

COPPER IMMERSION COOLING COIL
was a ~$24, 20m coil bought from some air con and fridge servicing centre from Eunos, and painstakenly bent into shape using pots and mugs. the coil just nicely interfaced with some 50m long clear piping we bought cheaply at a store nearby to run the water. interface with the common tap was a plumbing task my partner specialised in (he managed to double up the gas pipe as a water pipe) and the thing was very waterproof, no tape, no clamps, it just fitted perfectly. After some discussion at another thread abt copper poisoning we might reconsider this immersion cooler....
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whats with the face mask?
if you clean and store your copper properly, you will not get the poisonous oxide.

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I see you're a Rock Band fan too, rock on :D

BOTTLING
we got about 60 amber bottles from the glass shop near chinatown, and bought 4 2nd hand tiger beer crates to hold the bottles. Initially used bleach solution to scrub out the bottles, rinsed with boiled water thrice to get rid of all the chlorine, then bottled after addition of dextrose solution... Bottling is great fun, drank the last runnings of the bottling with yeast clumps and got diarrhoea.

obviously you've not drunk enough of the last runnings. You need to build up a resistance to the yeast. :lol: :lol: just kidding.

Everything cost about $800 cos of the DIY-ness in it all... Doubt that the cooler can make it past 15 deg, but in future when we really want to lager we might build the same system but this time with an actual compressor system on top...

AS for the wyeast pack it didnt swell because i think i smacked it too hard and too many times and the yeast probably all died (or raymond said, refused to work.) when we realised it wasnt working it was already close to 24 hours and in such an emergency there wasn't another wyeast irish ale that raymond could provide, so we just got a dry pack one instead which we made a starter for, dumped it in.. nofroth at all and we were wondering if we accidentally dropped a large amount of star san in to make it really inhabitable, but then after taking a whiff of the wort after a week it was definitely definitely becoming a beer=)

Yesterday we just opened the first 2 bottles of our irish red ale wannabe next to an actual kilkennys at Loof and tasted it. Shared with some strangers too. Mixed reactions. Some pointed out correctly that the kilkennys hops was way smoother, ours didnt achieve that kind of smooth pick up and finish. Our aroma and flavour was really amazing and powerful though(i think we overdid the fwh part, and promash IBU calculation on FWH is a bit weird?) Some dude drank a glass of our beer, then ordered a normal asahi, said asahi is comparatively weaker (he used the s word i think?), and then wanted to order another glass of ours. he got pretty shocked (and amazed?) when he learnt it was home made. Will ageing the beer a bit more work?(its only 1 week since dextrose carbonation). One major problem. our beer had, sadly, zero head. Please help me out on this one- the few factors i could think of is firstly cos of the beer nature- we dublinated the water to high CaCO3 (300++ ppm) and extreme hardness killed any chance of a head. Or secondly- noticed that all beers using dublin water- guinness, smithwicks- all had nitro drafts or widgets. This is one of the main reasons why we think the next time we do this we need kegging and start learning from u guys abt nitroing (if i tio 4d i will buy the blender.) Any help on this? I used heading powder but like no effect at all. Maybe the water is just too hard. Anyway we're looking at TADs cos, like I said we're super on budget. Got $$$ no problem, straightaway buy a chest fridge and we'll DIY something out of it...

Other than that we're realll happy with the first attempt that amazingly did better than expected!!! the aroma is really kilkenny amplified, though the flavour transitions are too hardsh, hopefully ageing settles that. Its quite bitter, the other guy phu said it reminds him of a Brewerkz IPA. Will always remember the night when most of the supplies came and Gary delivered them- we said we're gonna full mash and he got shocked haha. So much said and done we're still darn far from melanoidins and stuff tt the pros worry about(oh gosh after reading that i think we should have tried something longer than a 40min boil and removed the northern brewer for bittering)- right now thinking of how to lager the current carbonated irish red 30++bottles at 11deg to smooth out the flavour while the new brew is going on.

Gonna keep to tradition. Its the brewing part thats fun. So the upcoming cherry ale is going to be fullmashed! Thanks for reading=) :lol: P.S. I'm without specs. He's Phu.


yes, Promash has some problems with FWH calculations. Actually, FWH is still quite experimental, and I've not seen any hard and fast calculations for it. You guys are pretty ambitious for a first brew.
For nitro, you have to go the kegging route, no ways around it. You need specialized equipment apart from the normal kegging gear, such as a nitro gas tank and regulators, nitro beer tap etc. No need to tio 4D, take part in the next IBrew challange and win, then can use the voucher to buy from Raymond :D

For head rentention, check if your glasses are washed properly. Also, if you're expecting the kind of head from the kilkenny nitroed can, then you'll be disappointed. You can only get that type of creamy head from nitro.

I would suggest drinking up the current batch fast, to make room for the next :lol:
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In fond memories: The Pursuit of Hoppyness (IBC 2007 Gold) -- Cheap Bastard Ale (IBC 2008 Gold) -- Cheap Bastard Ale III (Asia Beer Awards 2008 Gold)
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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby Hunty » 17 Nov 2008, 10:11

very ambitious p&p.... full marks for trying ag from day 1... but you didnt fancy trying at least one kit first ?

anyway...onward and upward from here!

I am intrigued on the minifridges... how do these devices work, are they peltier units ? Do you have condensation issues ?

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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby puakz and phu » 18 Nov 2008, 02:40

hi keat,
thanks for the tips!!
1) our cherry ale is aiming to use only enough malt for a 2.2 abv that should complete in a week. just did this yesterday and the yeast were going nuts!! after 1 week the stuff is to be racked into a secondary and then the cherries added in. were scared about using fresh cherries cos those are really expensive and we need to pasteurise (which risks gelatinizing and spoiling the beer by turning the cherries into jam). so we got 5 kg of canned pie cherries, pitted and those should do the job- everything in, including heavy syrup. (should we leave the syrup out?) should we freeze the cans and risk them exploding in the fridge'? initially we were thinking of using a sanitised blender to mash the cherries and add them in. this second stage will take 2 weeks as the yeast eats cherry and meanwhile we're planning to dryhop with a saaz (when should this go in?) and then later another racking into a carboy for a week then finally bottling/TADing. really would like to TAD this but it depends on our finances=(

2)the face mask and gloves were on since we started opening the grain bags. this is known as newbie kiasu syndrome; later on we reviewed the process and for this cherry ale we were'nt so anal about it haha even dared to have cheeses and wine during the mash itself. after boil, sanitisation is king of course. as for the copper im still really confused because there's another thread and there seems to be differing views- to starsan (and strip off the oxide) or not to starsan etc. or just sterilise while the wort is boiling away.

3)ohhh yes, we also made a 'lambic' out of the last cloudy tun runnings by leaving the stuff to ferment on top of the fridge in a cup, then drank it 21 days later. gross/

4) agree with the fwh part, for this brew we fwh saaz and dh saaz also with cascade going for the proper boiled route. so is a 40 min boil (dont want melanoidins here now) and we just assumed the fwh to be 40mins boiled.

5)would love to TAD the cherry instead of finishing the current batch!!!:D been distributing it with pretty nice comments from parents, friends, colleagues, and random strangers at Loof.

hi hunty!

thanks=) well we started out by more or less thinking about buying a beer machine kit- then went to the ecp mudfest and realised that we might wanna be crazier, to move to extract and then later on we just decided screw it and lets just try ag and build everything and if we fail we shouldnt get too upset... well it was surprisingly alright!

the minifridges core is the heat exchange biscuit. a 1.5 inch by 1.5 inch white biscuit with 2 wires, DC i believe, sticking out. when powered up one side turns hotter and the other colder; there is a transfer of heat. so in minifridges blocks of high surface area metal are attached to both sides and insulated from each other so the "outside" fan dissipates the heat accumulated from that side of the biscuit, and on the inside for small fridges the metal block is visible. due to the need to make sure we get a good airflow in the cooler we added another set of metal fin block and fan on the inside to "spread coolness". it just happened that phu had a fridge, i had a fridge, and we both didnt need them and we coulnt afford the much bigger and more efficient heat exchange raymond sells or compressor units and so we diyed the thing, and added temp autocontrol, space for 2 carboys/60 bottles lagering, and cooler redundancy on good measure. right now its keeping the temp 18.6 by right but our carboy feels like the yeast is really feverish. yes we have condensation, but due to our design copying chest freezers plus extra black acetate silicon, there's no leaks and we clean the inside of the cooler box once after a 4 week fermentation/bottling.
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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby keat » 18 Nov 2008, 19:34

puakz and phu wrote:hi keat,
thanks for the tips!!
1) our cherry ale is aiming to use only enough malt for a 2.2 abv that should complete in a week. just did this yesterday and the yeast were going nuts!! after 1 week the stuff is to be racked into a secondary and then the cherries added in. were scared about using fresh cherries cos those are really expensive and we need to pasteurise (which risks gelatinizing and spoiling the beer by turning the cherries into jam). so we got 5 kg of canned pie cherries, pitted and those should do the job- everything in, including heavy syrup. (should we leave the syrup out?) should we freeze the cans and risk them exploding in the fridge'? initially we were thinking of using a sanitised blender to mash the cherries and add them in. this second stage will take 2 weeks as the yeast eats cherry and meanwhile we're planning to dryhop with a saaz (when should this go in?) and then later another racking into a carboy for a week then finally bottling/TADing. really would like to TAD this but it depends on our finances=(

If its in a can, no need to pasteurise, it's already pasteurised. No need to freeze the cans either, the canning (and pasteurising) process is sufficient to unlock the juices. I would throw the syrup in as well, more flavor and more kick :D I wouldn't dry hop it though, you want the cherry aroma and flavor to come through, the dry hops will muddy it.

2)the face mask and gloves were on since we started opening the grain bags. this is known as newbie kiasu syndrome; later on we reviewed the process and for this cherry ale we were'nt so anal about it haha even dared to have cheeses and wine during the mash itself. after boil, sanitisation is king of course. as for the copper im still really confused because there's another thread and there seems to be differing views- to starsan (and strip off the oxide) or not to starsan etc. or just sterilise while the wort is boiling away.

I usually rinse my copper coil and toss into the boil 15mins before flame-off, to sanitise. No problems so far. If you clean and store the coil properly, you should not get much oxidation, just a bit of dulling. Otherwise, you're probably not brewing enough :D
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In fond memories: The Pursuit of Hoppyness (IBC 2007 Gold) -- Cheap Bastard Ale (IBC 2008 Gold) -- Cheap Bastard Ale III (Asia Beer Awards 2008 Gold)
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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby puakz and phu » 20 Nov 2008, 10:33

thanks keat=)
im getting a TAD!!!!! woooohoooo
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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby puakz and phu » 22 Nov 2008, 14:08

ah ok just added the 4.255 kg worth of canned cherries into the secondary!!!

well in hope of a more powerful cherry flavour, we blended everything and dumped it in under sanitary conditions.. no issues from here right?

in about 2 weeks it should all settle down and we'll draw it out into TADs. the pre-cherrified low abv beer (wheat dry pack yeast) smells really fruity already. lotsa esters.

shd i open new thread (if nec)? a bit off topic ya, this is a kilkenny thread.
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Re: Kilkenny & Cherry Fruit Beer

Postby spud » 08 Dec 2008, 23:39

Hi there U two Crazy Brewers.
Pleased U actually got to drink your first Brew as many a new brewer has secretly dumped that one after celebrating the birth then camr the realization that it was shit . But congrats to U guys.
Love the DIY attitude as thats in us all, its can become an extremely expensive hobby if U become addicted, & who isnt.

Cherry Fruit Beer how did she go did U get surprised at the fermentaion pick up after the addition of the cherry pulp..

Have a feeling U guys have more of a handle on this than U realize or we do :lol:

Cheers & good Luck.
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Keg - Scottish 80/-, Eda's Milk Stout
Next in line - Choc /Hazelnut Porter, Dry Knickers Stout then, Classic American Pils, Kolsch.
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Re: Kilkenny Recipe

Postby puakz and phu » 11 Dec 2008, 14:41

hey thanks spud=)

the 'kilkenny clone' has been spending some bottle conditioning and lagering to date and every week we'd pop one open and try it. Very obvious on the mellowing out and smoothing out of flavours, as well as the different hop flavours starting to blend nicely togther... not an exceptionally high alc beer but really potent. overcarbonated compared to the kilkenny and hence no going down the throat glug glug glug due to the carbonation sting... There's a tad of metallic taste as well and the powerful entrance of hops (northen brewer?) followed by a really flowery finish (saaz?) detracted from kilkenny, but was an interesting insight... SRM was slightly lower than kilkenny's deep red as well. beer was not as clear as we'd like it to. the reaction to tasting the beer was 'wow, that's an IPA of some sort isnt it?' instead of 'wow cream!!' as we were forced to use dry pack english yeast. head retention is mad due to a slight overdose of heading powder. sticks to the side of the glass. the head however is not the nitro type.

but oh no, it still tastes great=))) just that it didnt hit the target, and the next time itll be much closer!!!

so we reckon that after some post mortem studies: for the next brew there would be an increased addition of choc malt, removing northern brewers and saaz frm the hops, and concentrating on FWH of Fuggles and DH of EKG, viciously boiling of mash water before coolin down for use in mash to take out all o2 and attempt a 'bottom-sparging' method to reduce HSA responsible for the metallic taste. will also use wyeast 1084 irish ale with a proper starter to prevent that IPA result. would also add the chocolate and caramel 75 malt closer to mashout(still studying this one) to prevent harsh unnecessary tannins. will be rethinking out boiler cooling solution as well, right now it's tap water through immersion cooler; next time its going to be wort pumped through the immersion cooler immersed in a bucket of ice for mad cold break and hence better protein clumping and clarity. plus going to lower the carbonation, throw away the heading powder and attempt nitroing the beer as learnt that high bicarbonate water head retention is not good, and that nitro is one of the reasons behind the smooth body of irish style beers. will be attempting a test on liquid nitrogen and use of dry ice in TADs from tuas!

as for the cherry, as planned brewed a 2.1% abv wheatbeer with wheatyeast for the floral/fruity character, using cascade and saaz. put into fermentor for a week, yeast was hyperactive and experienced a yeast fever (the carboy felt warmer than surrounding temp in our cooler, what the heck) so we used a blow off pipe in anticipation of a yeasty orgasm... after that week we smashed up 4.255 kg of pitted cherries and with hunty's advice threw in the syrup as well, then re-racked the wheat beer into the carboy with very little headspace left... overnight the yeast orgasmed spewing red gunk all around in the fermentor and imparting a nice pear frangrance all around cos of the vodka, cleaned that up and waited two weeks and couple days ago racked the contents into 3 TADs. Unfermentable cherry skins floating on the surface, sorry no pictures as we were all still too excited about it, and a large amount of slurry on the bottom... all through the ferm we left a bag of saaz floating around inside and it was a b*tch to take in and out of the fermentor during re-racking all swollen up (we only have one) and john palmer says hops just dont get infected... natural carbonation for the TADs so used dextrose and relied heavily on your thread back in 2006 on how much dextrose to carbonate for TADs=) settled on ~30g per TAD. couldnt resist wondering if it tastes good so tasted some pre-carbonated beer + slurry, the flowers and fruits are pretty awesome think it must be the saaz floating about for 3 weeks. risking another diarrhoea.... but anyway the cherry ale is being lagered/conditioned/carbonated at the same time, about 10-13 deg C and would be ready just in time for xmas=)))
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